SHOULD CATHOLIC LAY PEOPLE BE ABLE TO SAY MASS?

In a stunning intervention that will rattle some cages in Rome, the powerful Dominican Order in the Netherlands has issued a booklet containing the radical recommendation that lay mi nisters chosen by their congregations should be allowed to celebrate the Eucharist if no ordained priests are available.

Further the booklet states the Church should drop its priest-centred model of the Mass in favour of one built around a community sharing bread and wine in prayer.  Using the early Church as a model, the booklet says a congregation could choose its own lay minister to lead services.  The lay minister and the congregation would speak the words of consecration together:  “The Church is organized around priests and actually finds the priesthood more important than local faith communities.  This is deadly for local congregations … Speaking  [the words of consecration] is not the exclusive power of the priest. It is the conscious expression of faith by the whole community.”

Since 2000 about 200 parishes in the Netherlands have closed because of the lack of priests.

Will Rome seriously consider these recommendations.  Of course not. That’s not the point. The point is that a serious church group, percolating from the bottom up, is studying another way of being priest.  Others will follow and ultimately Rome will have to acknowledge the debate.

Meanwhile the rigid fundamentalists in the Church must satisfactorily answer this question:

Is the insistence on a celibate male priesthood more important than the reception of the Eucharist?

What do you think?

15 Comments »

  1. 1
    SUZANNE Says:

    You can’t have the Eucharist without the priesthood. Celibacy isn’t absolutely required, but you can’t perform the sacrifice of the Mass without a priest. You can’t consecrate the Eucharist without first being consecrated yourself.

    These guys are toast. The Church will tolerate a lot of shenanigans, but direct threats to the sacrament of Orders are swiftly dealt with (swiftly by Church standards). Not to mention that the idea that the priest is unnecessary is heresy. Smacks of Protestantism.

  2. 2
    Cate McB Says:

    The Eucharist by any definition is much bigger, deeper and more significant than the priesthood. Hurray for the Dominicans!!!!!!!!! I’m sure they arn’t the only ones advocating and doing this.

  3. 3
    SUZANNE Says:

    “I’m sure they arn’t the only ones advocating and doing this.”

    Sure. They’re called Protestants.

    “The Eucharist by any definition is much bigger, deeper and more significant than the priesthood.”

    All sacraments are related to the Eucharist. You can’t separate the Eucharist from Orders. It doesn’t makes sense,theologically.

  4. 4
    Cate McB Says:

    I’m sure if Jesus returned today, he wouldn’t make sense theologically either within mainline Roman Catholicism. The problem is a sacramental theology and an ecclesiology that has been cut off from the example that Jesus set. Jesus was eucharistic in just about everything he did. The time has come for all of us to do the same. “Catholic,” “Protestant,” … I’m not sure these words move mountains at the end of the day. And there’s only one God, so there’s a need to deal with otherness as Jesus bent over backwards to do everywhere he went. Again, eucharist is bigger, deeper and more significant than the clerical sense of priesthood that reduces eucharist to what is consecrated and shared at the altar.

  5. 5
    SUZANNE Says:

    I’m sure if Jesus returned today, he wouldn’t make sense theologically either within mainline Roman Catholicism.

    You are certainly entitled to your opinion. But in the perspective of Catholicism, it is not possible to consecrate the Eucharist without an ordained priest, and if a person wants to remain faithful to Catholicism, he has to accept that perspective.

  6. 6
    Cate McB Says:

    You are certainly entitled to your opinion as one view of Catholicism, but within Catholicism, the priesthood means the priesthood of all believers. As such, at the risk of sounding like a broken record, eucharist is bigger, deeper and more significant than the reductionist, clerical sense of priesthood that reduces eucharist to what is consecrated and shared at the altar. And again, I think there is a need to deal with Jesus’ example.

  7. 7
    SUZANNE Says:

    but within Catholicism, the priesthood means the priesthood of all believers

    No, as a matter of fact, there are two kinds of priesthood, the priesthoood of all believers (presbyterium), and the priesthood of the ordained (sacerdotum). That issue was clarified during the Council of Trent. Msgr. Gervais, Ottawa’s former Archbishop, gave a sermon on that very topic during Easterweek.

  8. 8
    Cate McB Says:

    Its time to move beyond the Council of Trent. And the priesthood at the altar means absolutely nothing if the priesthood of all believers is not enacted in and beyond the pews. Bishops can say whatever they like, but they may soon find themselves facing empty pews and closed churches which is the situation in the Netherlands, many other places in Europe, and is getting closer every day to being a critical reality here in North America. Thankfully, the Spirit is very much alive and creating new realities in Holland and other places.

  9. 9
    SUZANNE Says:

    Its time to move beyond the Council of Trent.

    That’s not how the Church operates. One a dogma is defined, it’s Church teaching forever.

    And the priesthood at the altar means absolutely nothing if the priesthood of all believers is not enacted in and beyond the pews.

    The priesthood of the altar is what enacts the priesthood of believers.

    Bishops can say whatever they like, but they may soon find themselves facing empty pews and closed churches which is the situation in the Netherlands, many other places in Europe, and is getting closer every day to being a critical reality here in North America.

    Because they do not teach the faith. You will find churches full where the Catholic faith is properly taught and stressed. They don’t have a vocations problem in the Diocese of Lincoln,Nebraska, arguably, the most conservative diocese in North America. Same thing with many other places. The reason the pews are empty and there are no vocations is because liberals are screwing up the church.

    Thankfully, the Spirit is very much alive and creating new realities in Holland and other places.

    They said that during the Protestant Reformation, too. The denomination that is growing the fastest are Evangelicals. The ones that are dying off the fastest are liberal mainline churches. That should tell you something.

  10. 10
    Mel Steffor Says:

    If God or Jesus came to your home and talked to you, What would you do? Would you tell everyone what God had to say? Well that is what I have been doing, telling everyone that I can reach.

  11. 11
    Mel Steffor Says:

    This is what he told me. This is an important issue with God. Please read and pass it along. The message is from God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost respectively sent in the Spring of 2006. It is about the meaning of First is Last and Last is First . The message is this:
    In the morning I go to Heaven. In the afternoon I live my life. In the evening I die, death. What does this mean? In other words this means Birth is Last and Last is Birth. Think of this as a continous circle of life. Birth, Life, Death, Birth. God also said that Judgment will be before Birth in Heaven. AS birth on Earth is painful so will birth in Heaven. Yes, God has recently made contact and he sent a messenger. Spread this message along, just like a chain letter. OH, one more point of interest. Did you know that Mike Douglas died on his birthday? Mel Steffor

  12. 12
    Mel Steffor Says:

    Now I do have proof that he talked to me. Lots of it. One piece of proof is in the story of three famous people, Mike Douglas, Merv Griffin and Nancy Reagan. There is more to this story but I will make it brief here. Mike dies on his birthday. Merv dies the day after. Merv and Nancy are born on the same day. Now I found this interesting but I didn’t get the meaning of this until one morning I have a waking dream. In the dream I hear:
    We each die in succession, then we are born on the same day. Now I get it! Lets see the Roman Catholic Church prove any verse in the bible is gospel like I just did. Mel Steffor

  13. 13
    Mel Steffor Says:

    I have tons more to say, but I don’t know if the message is welcome here. I am a little of the subject on who can talk at the pew. Thanks for reading. Mel

  14. 14
    Mel Steffor Says:

    Correction: To the meaning of First is Last and Last is First. It means that Birth is Last and Birth is First. Sorry for the error. God talks in symbols and opposites at times so it takes time to figure out what he is saying. Some of his messages are clearer than others, plus they have multiple meanings.

  15. 15
    Mel Steffor Says:

    Here is one small piece of proof.

    Like I said earlier, the Holy Spirit talked to me, besides his message about First is Last and Last is First, he had something to say about “Who Killed JFK”. Christ tells me that the man who shot JFK is a policeman. He also tells me the name of the shooter, but it is in a jumbled word. The word is “Fritters” . I see the name F. Ritter right off so I think that is the name of the killer. Now God has lots of other messages for me to figure out, so I put “who Killed JFK” on the back burner for over a year. A year or more later , just recently, I have more time to look for F. Ritter. I can’t find a policeman with that name who lived in Dallas, Texas in 1963. So I am searching for information about who killed JFK and there is a picture of a policeman by the name of JD Tippit. Now Tippit kind of looks like Ritter . Now I un-jumble the letters of Ritter to TIRRET. Now TIRRET looks more like TIPPIT. Now I make the R’s stand at attention, I get TIPPET. One problem is that the I and the E are not the same. So I do some research on the family name TIPPIT. Turns out that in the late 1800’s JD Tippit’s grandfather changed their name from Tippett to Tippit. So the next step, I change the E to I. So Tippet is now Tippit. Now I have FS Tippit and JD Tippit. The first two initials are not the same. Next I go to Wikipedia there I find; “Some thought that J. D. stood for Jefferson Davis. However J D does not stand for anything. That means his name is just J D. So the initials F S, do not stand for anything. I just have two initials that do not stand for anything. Are you following me?

    Next what does FRITTERS mean. If your following my thinking here, God is going to tell you what happened to JD Tippit after he was shot. Fritters are a dough that is deep fried. Bread also means body, like in the last super Christ takes the bread and says this is my body. Look in the dictionary, PIT means HELL. TIP means money paid, gratuity. There are other meanings to.

    JD Tippits body (dough) is placed in the deep fryer (lake of fire). Now I think this clue (Fritters) was ingenius. After all God came up with it. I think he does have a sense of humor too. Kids now have a new game to play. They can play God. Pilsbury dough boy fry’s in the lake of fire. You get HELL! fry baby fry!

    If you think this is just crazy. Remember I am just the messenger. Jesus is the one that had to talk about JFK. So he had a reason for doing that. Chirst is telling you who killed the president so that you will believe that his messages are from God. Remember only God knows who killed JFK. He told me and I am telling you. I had forgotten about the case years ago. This is a cold case now, it been 45 year since the shooting. Nov. 22 is the anniversary.

    I also read the part about giving false prophesy. God says false prophets go to Hell or something like that. I only repeat what God told me. Now what I wrote above is from God. He told me who killed JFK in 2006. The above is not a lie or a joke and I am going to HEAVEN without fear.

    Before I forget. Gods messeges usually have more than one meaning. F S could also stand for “Fence Shooter”.

    Who are the co-conspirators? Turns out that there are two policemen named Tippit, and one other Tippett working in the Dallas police Department that same year(1963). Back to the clue word Fritters. That is plural, you know about plural. We have two fritters. The co-conspirators name is Gayle M. Tippit.

    Now the Dallas Police Department obviously covered up and framed Oswald. He was the Patsy. They did it cause it is very possible that one of the other police officers rushing to the scene saw Tippet fleeing the scene carrying a rifle. They covered it up because of the embarrassment of one of their own was the man that killed JFK? And the Warren commission must have also figured that out so they stuck with the Dallas Dept. story saying that it was Oswald. Otherwise it could have been a National embarrassment. Now if you look at the evidence like I did. It is easy to see that the Dallas Police Dept tampered with the evidence over and over again. And they did a very bad job of it too.

    Now this is my opinion, not Gods. I think God is behind the creation of the Internet. I could never have been able to figure out a lot of his messages without the use of the Internet. People on the Net have been a big help to me. God talks to other people too, they just don’t know it. God let me know it was him.

    This is proof because it is impossible for any one to do what I did with the clue word FRITTERS. I made it look easy. I can do that over and over again in all of God’s messages. It is impossible for anyone to do what I do.

    Gods messanger, Mel Steffor

    P.S. I know I am off topic, but God’s issues come first. . . . Don’t they?


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